Will Fulwider 0:15
Michael, I heard that there’s a fact that you’d like to tell me about Wisconsin?

Michael Geissinger 0:22
Yeah, so I usually have a joke, but this time, I’ve got a fun fact. So from Wisconsin DNR, Wisconsin has more than 800 miles of Great Lakes shoreline, and more than 20% of the state’s land area lies within the Great Lakes basin. Half of the state’s population lives there, and more than 1.6 million people in Wisconsin get their drinking water from Lake Superior or Lake Michigan. Why does this matter? Well, we’re talking about water conservation today on field notes. So welcome everyone. What is water conservation? Why does it matter? And how do we make it work on our Wisconsin’s farms? And so keep listening to get those questions answered here. We, of course, have subject matter expert Dr Mallika Nocco with UW Madison extension who is an extension specialist and Assistant Professor in agrohydrology. So hi, Mallika. How’s it going?

Mallika Nocco 1:20
It’s going Wonderful. Thank you so much for having me on field notes.

Michael Geissinger 1:23
Yeah, for sure. So, you know, I mentioned we’re talking about water conservation. That’s a huge topic, and I know that you do some podcasting yourself too. So how about we start just like hearing a little bit of an introduction from you and about your work with water,

Mallika Nocco 1:41
yeah? Sure. Happy, happy to do it. So I grew up in, I don’t know where, how early we should start this, but I grew up in the Twin Cities area, and I actually, you know, was somebody who studied, I didn’t study science in my undergrad. I studied liberal arts, and I majored in philosophy and comparative literature, just because I really like to read. And after I graduated my undergrad actually worked as a pharmaceutical sales rep for five years for Pfizer. And during that time, I got really interested in gardening, and I did a UW Extension Program. I moved to Madison, and I did it. I did the master gardeners, and I became a master gardener. And when I became a master gardener, during that training, I really loved the soil, part of it. As a gardener, I just felt like the first time I saw that soil texture triangle, like I knew the secret to it all like, I felt like, really powerful. So then I decided I wanted to go back to school. And I got a master’s degree in soil science here at UW Madison. And I actually studied storm water management in an urban context. And I started to get, like, interested in the water budget, the different the different parts of the water cycle. And then around that time, there was a lot of, you know, there are a lot of water conservation challenges and questions being asked in the Wisconsin central sands region. And I got very interested in that, and I decided that that’s what I would focus Stanford PhD and focus my dissertation research on So, so I did that, and I worked in the central sands. I, you know, still have great relationships and enjoy working with a lot of those growers. But after I finished and I started looking for I knew I wanted to be extension faculty, because I’m a talker and I really like working, you know, with growers, and I like the role of extension. In addition to the applied research, I started looking for jobs related to what I studied, and most of those jobs were out west. So I ended up taking an extension faculty position at UC Davis focused on irrigation, and that’s where I started my lab. My lab’s called the conservation irrigation lab, but our tagline now is that we do more than irrigation, is what my grad students have started saying, and I really like that. So yeah, I was there for four years. Worked on a lot of crops in California, in the Central Valley, like almonds and processing tomatoes and wine grapes, you know, and also, like work with small farmers on different kind of diverse cropping systems in the area. And like a lot of irrigation management, thinking about precision irrigation and deficit irrigation. You know, we had some bad drought years that coincided with pandemic years, which were not the funnest, but really, you know, an opportunity to make a difference there. And I also got really interested in something we can talk more about. And this is the relationship between, like, you know, irrigation and, like, six. Setting up your soil to provide water for crops in the best way that it can for for growers who are actually, you know, relying on rain to supply water to the crop. So how can you use soil health practices and conservation practices to build soil physical structure to have a soil that functions hydrologically as well as it can. So that’s another area that my lab focuses on. So, yeah, that’s kind of a little, I don’t know, maybe too long you tell me background on who I am and what I do. Oh, I didn’t talk about I guess I should say that I definitely missed Wisconsin, and when I heard about this position that I’m currently in now, when it was advertised and I saw it, I was just like, that’s me. I want to go home. And so I applied, and was so happy and excited to be able to move my lab here and start a position in agricultural water management, or use the fancy term of agro hydrology.

Michael Geissinger 6:11
Well, we’re certainly super glad to have you back here in Wisconsin. And so I think you kind of almost started to answer this a little bit, but I guess I guess I want to create a little bit of a baseline, lay down a framework for the rest of our conversation about, like, water conservation. You know, you talked about the ability of the soil to supply that water to the crop. I imagine that’s part of it. And kind of roll it into the larger picture of what is it and how does it change with the different soils that we have here in Wisconsin. We have, like you mentioned, the central sands, which is a very different agricultural system than what we’ve got here in my counties of Dane and dodge. We were talking a little bit about tile drainage earlier, so that’s something that you know is interesting as it pertains to water. And then, you know, we’ve got a lot of water in this state, as Michael mentioned earlier, and California doesn’t have as much water so I you know, how does it are we should be something that we should be concerned about? And then, how does water conservation play, kind of in a state like Wisconsin?

Mallika Nocco 7:13
Yeah, absolutely, those are some great questions. So let’s start with thinking about water conservation. So water conservation, I think about it, as, you know, improving water quantity or the amount of water so there’s the right amount of water for both, you know, crop cropping systems for agriculture, and also for other ecosystems and other users as we want to define them, and then also improving water quality. So what is the quality of this water? You know, fresh water for the uses that we as communities define as important uses. And I think something that’s important to consider when we are defining water conservation is the scale. So I like to think about it and do research related to like, the scale of practices that that one farmer can do, so practices at the scale of a single farm, or, you know, across a few fields, and what those look like, and then the scale of a watershed. So one thing that I am so happy about in Wisconsin is there are actually quite a few producer led watershed groups. And you know, these groups are communities who are thinking about water conservation at this community scale, and they’re making choices together, and those practices and the choices that they’re making are different than the choices that a single farmer would make, and the planning that they’re doing is also different. They’re thinking at a longer range. Their goals are, you know, across a broader scale. And similarly, there’s like this last scale of our state, right? So what kinds of decisions do we as a state want to make to ensure that we have enough water, not too much water, to get to that other too much water question, and also clean water? And that’s that’s another scale that we we all need to think about together, whether we’re in agriculture or not. So so this is how I think about water conservation and how I like structure my research related to it to your question on Wisconsin being a white state compared to California, absolutely. But I will say that one of the interesting things about water quantity research is it’s is water scarcity is actually a social definition that is defined by communities, right? So here in Wisconsin, we actually have a lot of fresh water resources, you know, like lakes and streams and ground and groundwater and our. Communities place value on those resources. So when we’re thinking about water quantity, a lot of the grower led watershed groups in the sands, for example, are considering water quantity from the perspective of wanting to maintain healthy lakes and streams. And that’s just really different from a semi arid place like California, where they they’re not necessarily in the agricultural regions concerned with maintaining an abundance of fresh water resources, you just don’t see them in the landscape. So that’s kind of how I think about this idea of depletion and quantity and having enough. But then there’s also this issue with agro hydrology, or agricultural water management, of managing for too much, right? So I am also very much interested in working on drainage issues. We know in Wisconsin, in Dane County, over the past 50 years, there’s been an average increase of 10 inches of precipitation on an annual basis. And I read that, and that was just, it kind of blew my mind. When I think about like 10 inches, that’s a lot. It’s caught a bit of water. And in response, we’re seeing an increase, and I know we were talking well about how you’d seen this in your counties of just a lot of tile drainage. So I’m interested in, you know, supporting farmers as they are continuing to increase their installation of tile drainage, and ensuring that conservation tile drainage practices are considered as best as we can, like we have an opportunity as a state there where we because the, you know, a lot of tile drainage is being installed right now, we know some beneficial practices to ensure that the drainage happens in a way that’s also great for water stewardship. So that’s another issue that I’m really interested in, is ensuring that there’s not too much water for growers who are, you know, relying on their soil to provide just enough water for their crops, because plants don’t like too much water either, and

Michael Geissinger 12:21
So Mallika, I’m just curious, like, when you talk about conservation tile drainage, what does that look like?

Mallika Nocco 12:28
Yeah, I’m super happy to answer that question. So it can be a range of practices, right? That can be installed at the field scale. So I’m so excited. I actually just got funded by the dairy innovation hub here in Wisconsin, along with professors, Margaret kailzick and Scott Sanford, to do a conservation drainage project, essentially like we’re thinking about sustainable intensification, you know, under tile drainage and how we could incorporate cover crops and bio char into corn silage systems and that are tile drained. And how, you know, in addition to the drainage that’s needed in these systems and in these soils, how can we ensure and improve water quality under those systems? You know, in the water, in the drainage flows. So that’s an example of, you know, some practices that are would be considered conservation practices. And one of the questions is like, how do the practices work together? And how do they work with manure, which is a common addition in these systems as well the dairy component. And I guess silage is also the dairy component. So, yes, that’s an example, but there’s also other examples. You know, there is a lot of work that’s been done on edge of field approaches and bioreactors that can help to filter the water that’s that’s being drained from a field. There’s lots of kind of practices that can be installed to help clean up that water. And very much interested in those types of approaches as well.

Michael Geissinger 14:08
Yeah, definitely. And speaking to that point, you’d kind of mentioned watershed scale management of water. But if we were to, like, zoom in to a farm, who has, I don’t know, 200 acres, what does water conservation potentially look like for someone like that at like, a field scale? And I’m kind of, I’m kind of wondering, like, what are those solutions to water conservation? I know they’re going to be different for each farm, right? Too much water, too little water, you know, improving water quality. And so it’s going to be a little bit goals based, but maybe you could provide, like, a couple of examples of different solutions that your lab has been working on or researching further, or maybe even just ones that you have experience with that a farmer in Wisconsin might be thinking about.

Mallika Nocco 14:59
Yeah, so. So. So let’s start with a very, you know, a straightforward case of an irrigated system, you know, maybe in the central sands region of the state, and some of the Water Conservation Solutions, from a water quantity perspective, might be to grow crops or have crop rotations that are lower water using crops. Snap beans is an example of a lower water using crop or a shorter season. Potato would be an example of a crop that doesn’t use as much water from a water quality standpoint. You know, there are solutions like using a slower release fertilizer. We have been working a little bit with Kevin Masaryk, Dr Kevin masarik, out in Stevens Point to explore inter planting of cover crops and potatoes as a water conservation solution for water quality. There’s some really interesting amendments out there that can be incorporated for water quality, like different hydrogels, or, you know, biochar again, or also glycerol. Is another amendment that could potentially be used to just slow down the movement of nitrogen, or trap nitrogen and keeping it out of the groundwater in that area. So those are some, you know, potential practices that that a farmer in the sands region could use. So now let’s go to someone who is dealing with the problem of too wet, right? So that that’s when we would think about maybe a grower in Dodge County that is, you know, maybe dealing with this problem of of too much water at the wrong time. And you know, that person would maybe implement some tile drainage, and we would hope that from a conservation standpoint, they would maybe implement practices that would help to preserve water quality in the water that is moving through those tiles. So that’s a great example of, like, maybe a bioreactor would be an interesting solution, or implementing cover crops in those systems would be an interesting solution. So those are some examples for that that farmer that has a system that is, you know, dealing with the too wet of a system. And then, if I were to think of someone who has, you know, kind of a moderate system, but is more akin to dealing with extremes and increasing extremes, like, maybe this person doesn’t need to have drainage installed or have irrigation installed. But we are seeing increases in what they call weather whiplash, right, extreme flooding, extreme rainfall, then followed by droughts, or vice versa, or just like strange weather, right? Not intensifying, not not happening when we think it’s going to happen. And for that grower, when I think of water conservation, I think of trying to build a resilient soil, you know, trying to build a soil. You know, when you think of the structure of the soil, wanting to implement soil health practices that could potentially infiltrate water when it comes through, like improve the diversity of the pores in the soil. So, you know, some of them can hold water, but some of them can also drain water. So that’s kind of how I would think of conservation for that that particular grower, and there’d be a variety of different types of soil health practices that could achieve those goals as well.

Michael Geissinger 18:46
Yeah, that’s awesome. And we’ve covered a lot of that stuff quite a bit on field notes, and so people can reference other episodes if they’re looking for more there. And we are going to talk a little bit more in a few minutes about where people can go for more information, but quickly for that, I wanted to ask, what are some of the biggest barriers that farms will run into when adopting water conservation practices, and we kind of are somewhat familiar with the ones that are related to the soil health practices like reduced tillage and planting cover crops and things like that. But I was wondering if maybe you could speak to some of the barriers that would prevent farmers from adopting some of these other practices you’re talking about, and a follow up to that would be, then, how can farmers overcome those barriers to practice this stuff? Yeah,

Mallika Nocco 19:40
I mean, some of the barriers that I have seen would include just getting started, like just that the energy required to get going with some of this stuff can feel overwhelming. And we were talking a little bit about this before we started recording. We just live in a society now too, where there’s in. Information overload. So like having this like high energy to getting going and then trying to find, you know, accurate information about some of these practices and what to expect. Can can present barriers for growers. I also think just demonstration of return on investment is something that can pose a barrier of just and just how long it might take to see a return on investment in some of these practices. And this is something that I’m interested in, you know, starting to work on here, and that have worked on a little bit in California, we have an active project where we’re thinking about that return on investment issue, just because it can, you know, take labor and funding to try some of these conservation practices. So you want to know when you’re going to see a payoff. And, you know, I think too, like, if you’re thinking of a practice that might change the properties of your soil, you might want to know like when you can actually start to respond to those changes that are taking place. So, so that’s another area that could be a barrier, and in terms of like ways to overcome them, like, there are many different incentives to help with those initial costs to get going with some of these conservation practices. And then we do have support from a variety of like, reputable, trustworthy professionals, you know, in the state, and I know that some of the folks who listen to your podcast are those professionals. So there is support for trying these practices out. And, you know, some of the support that I’m thinking about is obviously extension, which is, you know, very reliable. They’re experts across different county offices across the state, like the two of you, who are very helpful resources. Additionally, there’s the agricultural water quality program through UW Extension, which has, like, great resources to get going on some of this stuff. And then I also want to give a shout out to the NRCS, where you know, you can look at and see where your county county offices are. And they also will be able to help get going on some of these practices. My lab, my lab website is irrigation lab.com and we are in the process of changing our website to make it more focused on Wisconsin, in addition to the California work that we keep doing. So stay tuned. Keep keep an eye on us as well.

Michael Geissinger 22:39
I don’t want to, you know, move you back too much into California as you’re trying to transition things over to here in Wisconsin. But I am curious about some of the, some of the projects you mentioned, a couple of them that you still have ongoing in California, to maybe give people all an idea about a little bit more detail as to what it is that you’re currently doing out there, and how you imagine those unrolling here, if they, if you would PORT them over here to Wisconsin?

Mallika Nocco 23:05
Yeah. So a great example of a project that could be, you know, done here, or similar to what we’re doing out there, is, I’m partnering with the Almond Board of California and almond growers, a handful of almond growers, and we have a project called T Rex, or the tree remote sensing of evapotranspiration project. And you know, evapotranspiration is crop water use and is super important for managing your irrigation. And this project incorporates several different ways of measuring evapotranspiration, so using Eddy covariance towers on the ground and then combining them with drones that can offer high resolution maps, and then satellites and kind of building towards this precision irrigation management framework, and that’s definitely something that we could do here in Wisconsin. And I’m interested in bringing to Wisconsin to kind of take our irrigation management to this place where we’ve been talking a lot for a very long time about precision irrigation. So how do we provide the information and the decision support to growers that want to do that type of of work. Another practice or another project that I have in California is kind of related to the soil health. Part of it is we’ve been looking at stacked management practices or regenerative practices with wine grapes and how those practices could potentially build drought and flood resilience. So looking at changes to water holding capacity, looking at changes to infiltration for when the rain does come, and thinking about how. Um, these just different combinations of practices could potentially make for a more drought or flood resilient soil in those systems, which are perennial and kind of kind of different Um, and yeah, one more example is, we’re looking at a designer cover crop. So a barrier in California to not wanting to cover crop very much for growers is the water cost of the cover crops. Just because of the water scarcity, there is enough that they’re actually concerned about how much water these cover crops are going to use. So we’re testing a very low water use cover crop that’s kind of been designed for those systems, for almond systems, specifically where it’d be dormant by tax day, when the almonds are starting to wake up and use water, because there’s this concern of competition with the cash crop for water. So that’s another example of a project that we’re working on. So yeah, those are kind of the flavors of what I’m interested in. But yeah, also interested in learning more about the water needs for growers here in Wisconsin.

Michael Geissinger 26:13
Very cool. Are you allowed to say what the name of this designer cover crop is?

Mallika Nocco 26:19
Yeah, yeah absolutely. It’s called, it’s called Oakville bluegrass, and it’s named after the Oakville Research Station, yeah, close to in Napa Valley, where the where it was first kind of tested,

Michael Geissinger 26:31
right, right? I’ve driven past Oakville many times back in the one in another life. That is super helpful to have a kind of an idea as to what you’ve been doing, really interesting stuff. I easily see how that could all be done here in Wisconsin, and the effects that it would have, for example, like you were talking about flooding, and how these stacked practices might address that. Like, I think of the Driftless immediately as to what practices are happening on these hilltops and versus, you know, kind of more in the in the in these drainage areas, and how does that affect water flow throughout these systems that in these areas that have had, you know, catastrophic flooding over the years. And as, especially as you were mentioning, we’re getting 10 inches more of rain on average, than we were 50 years ago. And especially as that hap as that falls into smaller, smaller time frames, right? It’s this like torrential rain, rather kind of the nice drizzle throughout several days. And so how does that, you know, change what we’re, you know, when we’re thinking about, what is the flood risk here, and then what are the practices that help to mitigate that? I think that’s super interesting, and has an absolute corollary here in Wisconsin. So really interesting things you’ve already talked about all the resources, including Michael and I, believe it or not, we know some things. And is there anything else that you want to share with us before we say goodbye today? Yeah,

Mallika Nocco 27:59
sure. I will share and plug my own podcast, which is called, yeah, it’s called the water talk podcast. You can find us on Spotify, and it was California, primarily in western water focused, but we are branching out to kind of cover and think about more national water issues now. And it’s, it’s not for the farmers that are listening. It’s not like a like a how to in the way that the other resources that I mentioned are. It’s more just thinking about broader water issues and talking with folks who are on the ground kind of trying to solve water problems, like at that community scale.

Michael Geissinger 28:37
That’s awesome. Well, everybody will have to check that podcast out too, but we appreciate having you on Mallika and sharing your water wisdom with us today.

Will Fulwider 28:47

Now you’ve been sitting on that one, haven’t you?

Michael Geissinger 28:50

All day

Mallika Nocco 28:51
Yes, it was a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Will Fulwider 29:04
Thanks for listening. This has been field notes from UW Madison extension. My name is Will Fulwider, regional crops, educator for Dane and Dodge counties. And I was joined by my co host, Michael Geisinger, outreach specialist in Northwest Wisconsin for the nutrient and pest management program of UW Madison. A big thank you to Joe Ryan for creating our theme music, and to Abby Wilkymacky for our logo. If you have any questions about anything you’ve heard today or about your farming practices in general, reach out to the extension agriculture educators serving your region you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai